MAXPREPS

[Esully63]

How does everyone feel about the push to use Maxpreps?

[RonVonHagen]

There are some things i like and some i don't. If every team actually used it and put their stats in I think its a great tool to get some analytics on teams and individual players. It really can be a good/useful scouting tool for coaches. What i don't like is the ability to analyze teams schedules and link to check out their opponents schedules like you were able to in previous years at the OHSVCA web site. You can still do it in MaxPreps but I liked the layout better at the OHSVCA web site.

[george]

I like it, if only for the elimination of double entry. I always used Maxprep because of the all the information. I would go to the coaches website for games played and records only. Now I only enter in Maxpreps and only visit one site.

I don't think the coaches site has anything Maxpreps doesn't. It might be displayed differently, but it's there.

Game stats are great, but as RonVonHagen pointed out the stats are only as good as the data entered.

[Esully63]

I really love the stats, I'm a numbers kinda guy. That is unless i am actually at the game then there is so much more to a players ability and contribution than what you see in the stats. That being said, I have one issue with it and that would be education. I believe there needs to be some training on the definitions of each statistical point. For an example, our teams stats are collected by assistant coaches so I feel they are very accurate, we had one game where we had 17 receiving errors (don't laugh everyone has a bad night, lol), yet the other team only posted 9 Aces. Now by definition there should be an ace for every receiving error. I have seen other game stats where block have not been counted against hitters as hitting errors or where blocks are counted even without a point being scored. I just don't think some of the people taking stats know exactly what they are doing. This will get better with time, I hope.

All in all I really like Maxpreps even though it is a bit bulkier than the coaches site, there is much more information available.

[Esully63]

I would love to have seen than Wheelersburg / Northwest game. Burg must have played near flawless.

The box score for NW looked like this.....

Kills 35 Set Points for NW 19
Blocks 32 23
Aces 8 25
Burg SE 6 17

Total 81 84

That means that in four set Burg only gave up 3 unforced points. Maximum of three hit out of bounds or in the net or lift or double hit or four hits. That is some remarkable volleyball or is it those taking stats have not been properly trained on the definitions of the stats they are recording?

It's so confusing Burg had 18 hitting errors yet NW had 32 blocks, does burg not count blocks against them as hitting errors? Why don't these box scores balance like in every other sport. Between those of you that like to dabble in the stats, or those that would really like to see a player accurately portrayed by thier stats, I can tell you this "There is a lot of work and education that is going to have to happen before Maxpreps will mean anything in southern Ohio. The more I look at it the more I realize at this point its only value is win loss records, because the stats are hosed.

[eagle83]

There are still some out there that think if you touch the ball while blocking is counts as a block.

[Esully63]

There are still some out there that think if you touch the ball while blocking is counts as a block.

....and some that think a block is not a hitting error, or if the other team doesn't get it back on the third hit its a kill. Like I said I love Maxpreps but it is going to take some time to get it to a point where it has any value at all.

[Xtoxxviii]

I agree, there must be a
Joe Isuzu school of volleyball stat training in southern Ohio.

It's always interesting in the SVC when WKKJ covers the games.
The discrepancies between WKKJ stats and what the coaches turn into the Gazette/SVCSportszone can be a double digit spread at times.

For those that don't know, Mike Smith of WKKJ is the husband of legendary Adena Coach Laura Smith and a former coach in the Adena program as well. i.e. He knows his stuff when it comes to the sport.
Mikes numbers are unbiased and Hoyle as they come regardless of who is playing or what maybe on the line.

The rest is like Ron Von said,
Only as good as the person turning them in.

[george]

I will admit to being lazy when reporting to the paper ... we add digs and serve receive passes for media outlets. We upload the right numbers, but don't want to confuse readers by saying 10 digs and 7 serve receive passes. 17 digs is reported. We could change it to 17 passes.

[Esully63]

I will admit to being lazy when reporting to the paper ... we add digs and serve receive passes for media outlets. We upload the right numbers, but don't want to confuse readers by saying 10 digs and 7 serve receive passes. 17 digs is reported. We could change it to 17 passes.

I am not concerned with what is reported to the papers, papers have a tendency to manipulate everything they right about for the wow affect. Its called selling papers, My concern is with the stats being reported to Maxpreps. If I were a coach looking to select nominees for an all district honor and I went and compared stats at Maxpreps you might be sitting at home whining about how a mediocre player made first team and a league stand out received no mention at all. I am not a coach, so my vote will never matter, but I do like to keep track of players my daughter plays with both in high school and in club ball. I also like to look at teams we are to play and I just like dabbling in the numbers. I look at maxpreps and get excited about all the data only to find it very distorted. Blocking stats seem to be the worst, i see girls with maybe 80 some block 74 of them solo. That just doesn't happen, that girl would be an absolute beast the likes of southern Ohio has never seen. Hitting percentages are very high also, I am not sure those taking stats are fully aware of all that is entailed in these stats. For instance, every single time there is an attack, whether it is a hit a tip or a push it gets counted as an attempt. I see some hitters push three times as many balls as the swing at, can you see what happens to the hitting average if the pushes are not added. Then a hitter gets blocked (an actual block, one that scores a point) the statistician needs to log the hitting error (omitting this also raises hitting percentages) but they also must remember to tally the attempt as well. Say a hitter pushes 10 balls to the back corner and scores 1 point. Although the statistician might be unaware of the fact that that push is an attack and if it scores it is a kill, the hitter might not be getting credit for the kill she is also not getting penalized for the other 9 fruitless attempts. All these factors makes it very hard to get even the slightest of of an accurate focused picture of players, teams or contest. We have teams recording 32 blocks in a 3 set match with multiple hitting averages in the upper 300's to mid 400's and they loose. When teams are continually showing box scores where all but 2 or 3 of their points are from blocks, kills, aces and the other teams service aces they are saying the other team rarely hits long, wide or in the net, they never miss time and have a set drop, or double hit or four hit or lift.



I am sorry I am ranting. You get the drift, I urge you all to talk to your coaches about improving the quality of the stats reported.

[george]

For official stats we take it seriously ... it's only when reporting to the paper. Even then, it's a small part of the actual picture.

[RonVonHagen]

Why differentiate actual stats and stats giving to the media? Digs and serve receive are two different categories. That just makes someone reading the stats in the paper even more cynical...

[Esully63]

For official stats we take it seriously ... it's only when reporting to the paper. Even then, it's a small part of the actual picture.

Well lets look at this. I just reviewed a recent game film and compared stats to the stats on maxpreps, just the team stats and top hitter for the team. Here is what I found (granted game films are boring so i might have missed some attempts but I assure you I have recorded all points.

The team I studied on film had 19 kills on 80 attempts with 15 errors, for a team hitting percentage of 0.050. They also had 7 blocks, some were questionable on film (cant always tell if the ball was buried in the net or blocked, I suspect some were some weren't) so I gave them the benefit of a doubt and scored them all.

The Max preps version of the game had 31 Kills on 78 attempts with 7 errors, for a team hitting % of 0.308. Also recording 15 Blocks.

The teams big gun (and she was good) on film had 13 kills on 35 attempts with 4 errors, for a team hitting percentage of 0.257. She also had 6 blocks.

The Max preps version of the game had 14 Kills on 22 attempts with 2 errors, for a hitting % of 0.545. Also recording 9 Blocks.


Now even though the game film was short 15 of the last games points that would only add more attempts and since the team only scored 4 more point not much in the way of kills.

This is what bothers me, this is two completely different game, depending on whether you were there or whether you relied on the stats. Its these stats that are supposed to be used to evaluate players for honors and to evaluate up coming opponents. Like I said the big hitter had a 0.257 on the night (if I missed one in the final points of the match and she did have 14 kills a 0.285) those are very good numbers for a hitter. What I see when I look at stats at maxpreps is a whole lot of inflation.

[Esully63]

Just for fun I just went through another game film trying to understand where all these abnormally high hitting percentages come from. The big hitter for this team went....

13 kills on 39 attempts with 4 errors for a 0.237% again a very respectable outing.

Well apparently they only count tips as attempts if they actually score and being stuff blocked is not an error or attempt because on the prep she is recorded as

13 Kills on 29 attempts with 1 errors for a 0.438%.

Serious education is needed.

[RonVonHagen]

Sully, excellent work and great analysis. To sum up your hard work in 4 words... Most Stats Are Bogus

[george]

"That just makes someone reading the stats in the paper even more cynical..."

1 in 10 is more cynical ... 9 of 10 are proud their daughter, sister, cousin, granddaughter, niece got their name in the paper. The 1 in 10 cynical ones are smart enough to go to Maxpreps for the true picture.

While I agree that teams are stat padding ... Maxpreps shows it to world. Before, coaches would pad their stat, but not show it until the league, district meeting. When called out ... they would say they don't have it broken down by game ... just season totals.

Maxpreps and transparency will clean it up over time. Canal Winchester is a great example. They have been called out many times for stat padding. Coaches know going into these meetings what stinks.

[Esully63]

Sully, excellent work and great analysis. To sum up your hard work in 4 words... Most Stats Are Bogus

Sound like the guilty dismissing the charges as trivial. Don't give me that "Most stats are bogus". Box scores add up in any sport. Batting averages, plus minus ratings, scoring you name it they add up. Are there mistakes, a miss here or there, and occasional judgement call? Heck yes but what I have shown is none of the above, it is a complete lack of understanding of what you are reporting. I never claimed, as your comments would lead one to believe, that anyone is padding stats. It could be happening, but I would like to think it is simply a lack of proper training for the stat keepers. Now you can take your dismissive attitude and roll onto another post where people don't care about the sport. Every coach, every player, every parent, should want to see at least some degree of accuracy in the stats. I pity the coach that has a dynamic player deserving of POTY but due to the coaches accurate stat reports she falls way behind others even though at every game people see her as a powerhouse.

If your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[Esully63]

"That just makes someone reading the stats in the paper even more cynical..."

1 in 10 is more cynical ... 9 of 10 are proud their daughter, sister, cousin, granddaughter, niece got their name in the paper. The 1 in 10 cynical ones are smart enough to go to Maxpreps for the true picture.

While I agree that teams are stat padding ... Maxpreps shows it to world. Before, coaches would pad their stat, but not show it until the league, district meeting. When called out ... they would say they don't have it broken down by game ... just season totals.

Maxpreps and transparency will clean it up over time. Canal Winchester is a great example. They have been called out many times for stat padding. Coaches know going into these meetings what stinks.

I know some stat padding goes on but this goes so far beyond that, that I think the biggest problem is not knowing what the definitions are and how to properly record stats. I know there are teams that are reporting pretty accurate stats then there are teams that are completely misrepresenting the stats. While looking at game film it seem to be an educational thing. For example if you take the actual hitting attempts from a game film and subtract tips and pushes (which are attempts) away you get much closer to attempts reported. If a hitter is blocked (actually blocked producing a point for the other team) it is not getting recorded as an error or an attempt. Put two or three more attempts and errors on anyone's night and see what a drastic change that makes. A block is a block that produces a point for the blocking team, a call of 4 hits does not count and a block that is played further is not a block. It is these things that are not being recorded.

I think if the who ever is pushing for the use of Maxpreps, and I like the idea, should also be requiring training for the coaches and players in taking stats. I am not blaming anyone of intentionally inflating stats but there is a serious need of understanding what exactly each stat is.

[RonVonHagen]

Sully, excellent work and great analysis. To sum up your hard work in 4 words... Most Stats Are Bogus

Sound like the guilty dismissing the charges as trivial. Don't give me that "Most stats are bogus". Box scores add up in any sport. Batting averages, plus minus ratings, scoring you name it they add up. Are there mistakes, a miss here or there, and occasional judgement call? Heck yes but what I have shown is none of the above, it is a complete lack of understanding of what you are reporting. I never claimed, as your comments would lead one to believe, that anyone is padding stats. It could be happening, but I would like to think it is simply a lack of proper training for the stat keepers. Now you can take your dismissive attitude and roll onto another post where people don't care about the sport. Every coach, every player, every parent, should want to see at least some degree of accuracy in the stats. I pity the coach that has a dynamic player deserving of POTY but due to the coaches accurate stat reports she falls way behind others even though at every game people see her as a powerhouse.

If your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

First off by me saying most stats are bogus i was actually agreeing with you and the fact that you show the discrepancies of the stats in the games that you looked at. Bogus is another word for false or inaccurate. Do people make mistakes, miss some of the action, or don't know the correct definition of a stat they're tracking? Absolutely! I wasn't condemning the person that tracks the stats, all I was saying that most stats you see are not accurate as you point out. Not all... but most. Let me clarify that my statement meant you should take reading of stats with a grain of salt. And where do I claim some one is padding stats?? So if you want to believe I'm being dismissive for agreeing with you have at it dude.

[Esully63]

Sully, excellent work and great analysis. To sum up your hard work in 4 words... Most Stats Are Bogus

Sound like the guilty dismissing the charges as trivial. Don't give me that "Most stats are bogus". Box scores add up in any sport. Batting averages, plus minus ratings, scoring you name it they add up. Are there mistakes, a miss here or there, and occasional judgement call? Heck yes but what I have shown is none of the above, it is a complete lack of understanding of what you are reporting. I never claimed, as your comments would lead one to believe, that anyone is padding stats. It could be happening, but I would like to think it is simply a lack of proper training for the stat keepers. Now you can take your dismissive attitude and roll onto another post where people don't care about the sport. Every coach, every player, every parent, should want to see at least some degree of accuracy in the stats. I pity the coach that has a dynamic player deserving of POTY but due to the coaches accurate stat reports she falls way behind others even though at every game people see her as a powerhouse.

If your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

First off by me saying most stats are bogus i was actually agreeing with you and the fact that you show the discrepancies of the stats in the games that you looked at. Bogus is another word for false or inaccurate. Do people make mistakes, miss some of the action, or don't know the correct definition of a stat they're tracking? Absolutely! I wasn't condemning the person that tracks the stats, all I was saying that most stats you see are not accurate as you point out. Not all... but most. Let me clarify that my statement meant you should take reading of stats with a grain of salt. And where do I claim some one is padding stats?? So if you want to believe I'm being dismissive for agreeing with you have at it dude.

To start with I am fully aware of what "bogus" and that has nothing to do with inaccurate. Bogus means fake, false, fictitious, deceptive fraudulent. The definition is a long way past inaccurate. Secondly I hate to see that your reading comprehension is what it is. You are not agreeing with me, you never agreed with me. My complaint from the beginning is the stats I am seeing for volleyball are horribly wrong and I have stated in several post how the stats add up in every other sport. You seem to think that most stats are bogus when they are not and I have said they are not. How is this agreeing with me.

My final words are stats add up in every other sport, the gross discrepancies in the max-preps volleyball stats is astounding and should be addressed. I do not believe for the most part that it is stat padding, I believe it is lack of knowledge on what is being reported. I do not believe that most stats are, as you put it, bogus as they add up in every other sport.